Legendary Tones - Weber Speaker Upgrade for Fender Deluxe Reverb Reissue
I took out the Weber 12F and put in the jensen. granted the Weber is not as broken in as the Jensen and I loved the twang of the weber, but the there is so much going on in that relationship between tube amp and. Weber Classic Alnico 12ATw 12", 8 ohm, 50 watt guitar speaker. You are Celestion Blue 12" G12 Alnico guitar amp speaker barely broken in. Previously I have tried the Weber 12F which I thought was too bright (not doped) . if you're a blues / rock guy and want amp break up at lower levels then a smaller . DF: I have a love/hate relationship with JBLs:lol.
It took a lot longer to complete than I anticipated, but hey it always does. Here's a link to the pics: Once it was installed there was just no getting the chassis to fit into the slot in the cabinet for the control panel.
It was rather unfortunate as once I realized it was stuck, pulling it back out caused the ends of the faceplate to bend and chip off some of the paint. I was rather dissapointed by this as it's a beautiful faceplate, but once I got it out I was able to bend them back a bit and touch it up with a black paint pen. I offered to buy my friend a new one but he wasn't bothered by it so we just left it. In order to get it to fit I used the dremel tool with some sort of milling bit I think, not sure what its called with the faceplate installed on the chassis and just run it across the top using the lip of the chassis as a guide.
It looks fine now and the lip of the cabinet hides it very well. I used a white paint pen and taped the boards in place to mark through the holes where the boards should get drilled. Again no big deal, just something you want to be damn sure to catch before you start installing parts in the chassis, as I think the best way to do it is to lay the chassis flat on top of the cabinet with the handle removed line everything up, tape it in place then use white paint pen to dot through the holes in the chassis where the cabinet needs to be drilled.
This method worked rather well. With a kit that has as many parts as this one did it doesn't surprise me that a few would get forgotten. Marsh amps was very quick to respond and send the parts directly out to me even though I wasn't the one who purchased the kit.
The electronics went together very smoothly thanks to the nice big printout of the schematic and layout that was included. That and the divided parts bins that kept all the component values neatly organized instead of sifting through a giant bag of parts. Upon firing it up it worked right from the get go, well not right away, I forgot a power supply wire but that was quickly fixed.
Normal channel seemed good, vibrato had a weird oscillation. I started pulling preamp tubes to see if the issue would go away and the reverb driver did in fact do this. The only thing I had done different was use buss wire and teflon to parellel all three elements of the reverb driver instead of having the anode connection loop over the socket.
I figured that might cause a problem and it turns out it did. Clipped that piece out, looped a wire between the two anodes and the problem went away. Also had an issue with the tremelo circuit making the popping noise at high speeds. It always occured at the same volume level and was affected some by the intensity and especially the reverb control. Probing the control side with a pencil didn't yield any results. However when I moved the cathode wire of the oscillator half of the tremelo tube up and over the socket the problem dissappeared.
Guess it must have been coupling with the reverb return. Once all that was done the amp worked perfectly. The only other issue I had was some of the knobs had stripped set screw holes, but again Marsh sent replacements out to me very quickly no questions asked.
He developed the 'Blue Dog' in both AlNiCo and much more affordable ceramic versions which he sells directly from his website. He also sells many other speakers, but the Blue Dog and Silver Bells seem to have some consensus as the bees knees.
I've called up a more than once and asked Ted for his advice based on my amps and the kind of player I consider myself. I like to play similar music but a little hotter? I'd been searching for a speaker that would give my amps a smoother, liquidy "voice" but keep that natural 'sustain for days' power that a cranked Celestion ceramic gives you - you know the ole V30 kind of volume.
I wanted perfection - balanced, singing sustain without the ice pick treble. Much of the tone comes from the actual process Ted uses to make his speakers anyway. Each one by hand! Look around on his site and you'll find lots of info about many, many topics including speaker building and even physics questions if you're that far into it.
Both very nice speakers when matched with another speaker in a 2x12, but neither seems to compare to the Blue Dog on their own. The only players who may not fall in love with the Dog might be metal heads who MUST have gobs of low end bass chunk or they're disappointed. These guys should probably look back to Celestion or Emminence. My best advice is to start with a google search for AlNiCo speaker shootout and take it from there.
I'll bet that if you're a finesse player at all and you try either the Blue Dog or Silver Bell ceramic you'll marvel at how good his ceramic speakers can sound. I can hear you drooling now Thank you for such a detailed response. That's exactly the type of info I was looking for. A couple questions, what wattage Blue Dog did you get, and what type of cab is it in, open or closed back? I purchased a Michigan Ceramic from Ted hoping it would do the trick, but it doesn't have enough bottom on its own and has a ton of midrange, very smooth top end though.
I should ask Ted how the Blue Dog compares to the Michigan. Come to think of it, I' m going to try the Michigan and the G12K together. I also have a Weber 12F in my Super Sonic. It sounds great with the SS, but brings out the digital sound with the SV.
It is so funny how speakers are picky about what amps they like. What kind of music are you generally into? Have you played many boutique amps or true vintage amps? I'm not trying to challenge your knowledge of music, amps, speakers or the like. I'm guessing you're going to reply that you've heard them all. I'm sure with as many helpful posts as you've made on this board you've played your share of amps and cabs.
I like to believe I still have decent ears, after all these years and listening hours, to discern the difference between soft and silky and hard and crunchy. I know I've heard enough speakers both listening to others play and with the axe in my hands to say with conviction that some of the best cabinets I've ever heard contained AlNiCo magnets.
Sooooo much power with endless soft touch and sustain. That cabinet sounds better than just about any other - with just about any amp!
SurfGuitarcom | Forums: Jensen C12Ns HOLY COW!!!!
Balance, volume and tone. I think you can make a case that ceramic speakers do something that AlNiCo magnets have a much harder time doing - punch and crunch. The two types of magnets generally sound very different from each other - though cabinet design comes heavy into play here - and if you say ceramic is just better I can see and respect your choice in tone, but I don't think you can honestly say there is no noticeable difference or that it's just marketing nonsense.
I think almost everyone can hear a difference with a great amp feeding a great cabinet with speakers that match the amp.
You can also, however, definitely convince most people me included that the difference in price especially lately is ridiculous and excessive! Free speakers for everyone! Speakers are a right, not a privilege It's a very similar cabinet in dimensions to the SV.
I chose it precisely because it was a close match to the output of the Blue Angel 38 watts which means it has a nice relationship on the volume knob between amp and speaker. I wanted to try his AlNiCo version but couldn't find anyplace near me to demo one so I sprung for one on verbal and written recommendations alone.
The result was a huge improvement over the Mesa Celestion speaker. The power relationship is almost exactly the same with the SV - 40 watts - so I'd recommend a 50 watt speaker for whatever you choose - it should breakup nicely and maybe a bit before you get into the crappy, raspy zone on the gain knob. I intend to test quite a few different tubes, cabs and speakers over the weekend and report back but, we'll have to see how much my everyday life gets in the way.
I can see the Michigan ceramic being difficult to push without enough wattage to really move the cone - it's based on an EV which means an extremely heavy magnet structure and a super stiff cone. What wattage did you choose? The Mark IV was at least an 80 watt head. That's Santana's touring rig for years right there. Anyway, your description sounds just about right.
My guess is you'll like the Blue Dog much better - it's far more balanced eq wise. There's plenty of low end for my taste, but I doubt there's enough low end for you if you play metal most of the time. Ironically, most of the 'metal gods' don't have that much distortion and chunk in the actual studio versions of their albums. If you really listen carefully you'll notice that the whole compostion or 'song' makes the guitars seem to have more attitude than what's really there - follow me?
It isn't all about saturated gain - it's more about the choice of chords, the volume of the bass player and especially the attitude of the singers' voice.
The Amp Garage
Ever notice that those metal bands live seem to have their tone washing all over the place and it only comes into focus some of the time - it's because live they like to crank up the gain into the beyond!! Two interesting tests for this: Now, try to hear only the guitar - especially try to dial out the bass and kick drum. Most of the time you'll hear a lot of bass you thought was coming from the guitars is actually residual filler that the band creates between drums and bass.
It's crazy - a studio engineer did this with me while listening to some Who tracks. He removed mostly Entwistle's bass and it was astounding how weak and crunchy Townshend sounded all alone.
Test 2 Any guitar store Play a few power chords and make up a couple solo licks. Now get up and hand the thing over to some kid and ask them to play any famous metal line. My guess is you'll think the amp now sounds like a cheap imitation of the real deal - too much gain - "turn it down man" - and it doesn't matter which amp you choose.
The thing is - we almost all tend to choose more than we really need and we can't seem to hear it until long afterward. Check out all the miserable metal clips that sound like pure shit on youtube.
We can all agree on one thing - it's not just because the kids don't practice before they post - it's also because they're cranking the thing way too far into clip. Now, we can't even hear the guitar - its just all amp! Once you find what you like, it is the right choice I have tried my share of speakers in my life and alnico types are typically very low power in terms of ratings and very high in efficiency Small voice coils, soft cones and loose spyders are the norm and that means a lot of color I am not into that I love listening to folks that use them, but cone breakup is something I do not like for myself Does that make any sense?
Instead of trying to explain my madness here, I suggest you give this a quick read The magnet is just much less of a factor in a speaker than the coil, cone, frame and even the cabinet IMHO A cabinet makes or breaks a speaker IMO There are just so many factors to consider when looking at speakers BTW - I really dig 65amps Peter is a friend of a friend and I met him at a show he was playing with some locals here What a fantastic person and player!
Those amps sound incredible to me That is a good article.